Technology Overdone to the Demise of Guys or humanity (touch)/sex (porn)

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Permalink Reply by Kim Jones on October 2, 2011 at 2:06

I have read this post twice, Charlotte. I am afraid I haven't the vaguest notion of what you are on about. I would like to understand what you are saying. Please try again. Guys disappearing from the Earth???? The demise of guys?

???

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Permalink Reply by Charlotte Fairchild on October 3, 2011 at 22:10

I did post the link I think by Zimbardo, Phillip. This would be useful to watch before trying to understand what I am attempting to say. Men are falling behind in important aspects of humanity because of their jump into a technological reality/nonreality/unreality? This is a fact presented by a psychologist, Zimbardo, PhD.

He refers to women as phosphorescent, and I appear above in full phosphorescence.

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Permalink Reply by Kim Jones on October 2, 2011 at 8:54

Most obliged to you Luis. The term 'guys' is my main stumbling block. The word applies nowadays equally to men and to women. I will watch the Ted talk later and present some reflections. I hope Charlotte did not feel I was thumbing my nose at what she wrote; I wasn't - I now see what the topic is. Where would we be without you...

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Permalink Reply by Kim Jones on October 2, 2011 at 13:43

OK - I watched it. I feel there is much, much to come to grips with here so yes, it's a worthwhile terrain to explore. Let me say that I am not wholly convinced that this is something we need worry about excessively (yet). This is because everyone is a hypocrite and a liar about:

1. the amount of time they spend online

2. the amount of porn they watch

3. their recreational drug use

and I mean young AND mature.

A statistic was recently burned into my brain, but I cannot find the reference:

67% of porn consumers are female. That's right. Girls are into it too. How they come up with these stats is beyond me, but I did read it somewhere or other recently. Why wouldn't girls be into it too? Let's not put our head in the sand. Porn IS fascinating to watch and everyone watches it.

PUT UP YOUR HAND NOW AND STEP FORWARD IF YOU HAVEN'T WATCHED A FUCK FILM ONLINE.

Well, if you really haven't, you are missing a large chunk of your education.

PUT UP YOUR HAND NOW AND STEP FORWARD IF YOU HAVEN'T HAD A TOKE ON A JOINT OR DROPPED A PARTY PILL OR GOTTEN DRUNK AS A SKUNK.

Once again, get educated if this is you. It may be that we only live once. Dead people don't have sex and party.

My point is, NONE of these things leads automatically to "addiction". There are those whose education and self-knowledge allow them to moderate their intake of these things.

The challenge, as always, is for people to learn to MODERATE. This is something schools really should be teaching. Schools should by now be teaching kids how to watch porn responsibly, how to take drugs responsibly and how to communicate lovingly and sensually with each other. I can dream, can't I?

Society wants these things. Therefore these things exist. I can even tell you that the budget for the Japanese porn industry is practically equal to the Japanese defence budget.

The probleme majeur Zimbardo (and Charlotte) mentions is the "demise of guys" (boys). Yes, this appears to be happening. Is excessive screen time, porn consumption and drug use a contributing factor? Almost certainly, yes. Are we sure these are the main contributing factors, though? Probably not, although it might be wise to investigate the possibility.

hY (on porn consumption)

Nobody has to wait for mom and dad to tell them about the birds and the bees anymore.
Everyone can skip "sex education" classes at school because they don't teach sex in sex education classes. They teach you how to roll condoms onto bananas. Kids want to learn how to do sex, just like they want to learn how to do music and mathematics. Nothing beats a good, graphic instructional video. Well - they show "how to" vids in most other classes and courses, so why is sex education such a euphemistic non-event? Some of the more interesting and worthwhile porn shows actually involve men and women interacting in a very loving, caring and sensual way. It's not always a "gang-bang". Perhaps the porn industry should be required to self-regulate a little, like other media entities and produce "healthy porn" for young people to watch that is suitable for instructing people how to get the most out of it without someone having to feel raped or subjugated (usually the girl).
Girls probably benefit the most from viewing porn because they can see the mechanics of the thing without undergoing some terrifying ordeal with a nervous, over-aroused boy who comes at them like a freight train and wham, bam, thank you, ma'am kind of thing. It's pretty much a fact that up to the time when porn became freely available online, every girl's sex education happened in this way. Your first time is incredibly important!

Then there is the issue of sexual orientation. There are many confronting issues for young people these days who feel they may be gay. Zimbardo and Charlotte are both confining themselves to hetero sex relations, but gay culture exists and is not going away, so the specifics of becoming gay and feeling OK about that needs to be addressed in this.

hR

I sympathise greatly with Charlotte when she says there is a need for boys to learn how to communicate via touch. But, I would broaden this to include females as well, now.

The so-called demise of boys may well turn out to be something else. Kids are taking a lot longer to grow up these days. Perhaps this is a good thing. It might take you a little longer nowadays to work out whether you are gay or straight, so working your way through a bunch of porn is a part of your coming to terms with who you are.

Even de Bono (in his movie '2040' - link available to view from this website) foresees a time when people will consider porn mainstream entertainment and will be able to take their recreational drugs responsibly, mainly because the harmful addictive effects will have been engineered out of the substance.

I could go on and on, but I'm sure I've said enough for now to get this particular ball rolling.

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Permalink Reply by Charlotte Fairchild on October 4, 2011 at 0:41

Prohibition is not on my agenda as a possibility.

I had 2 conversations for Ted.com, and the first one was ended because of the chance of promotion/self promotion. The second was successful for one week with the blessing of a translator who joined in. My position as a Global Health and Humanitarian Summit co-chair swayed a few people and there was a lively discussion where Cuddle Party never became a topic.

I do want to say that I was not explicit about wanting to talk about porn, and I did not direct the discussion towards porn. I am comfortable with the discussion of porn. I wrote Fertile Prayers: Daily Fertile Prayers. I went through 5 miscarriages and 12 fertility surgeries. Do I take great delight in humping movies? I am as base as the next person if I choose to be. I chose to be for a library course I took for 3 magazines, and when the fertility surgeries were taking a toll and I hated the concept of procreation for a time I watched 4 videos from sex ed courses. It was all so blasted painful. Then there is the drug issue. How many drugs do you expect a woman who decided to become a missionary at the age of 12 to be using? I take an iodine supplement for a thyroid that doesn't work well when I was young. I am 53. The life I have lived has not been sex-centric.

Yes, people who are male and female do watch porn. But this is about males, not women. Women are going to college in record numbers and men are staying out in record numbers. It isn't sex per se but arousal addiction tied to computers in games and porn. Games of violence may out number porn hours.

There are probably stats that women rape more men than women rape women, Kim. Is it believable?
No, Gene Able, MD, Psychiatrist, has stats about this. But there are women who are addicted to porn. Maybe 67% of women, but not 67% of people who are female and 33% of males. Not possible that males are less addicted than women to porn.

Tantra, Esalen exploration, and the http://www.cuddleparty all involve women and men and communication. Cuddle Party is the only one proclaiming/stating it isn't sexual, and that people keep their clothes on.

In my viewpoint, just as the prohibition never worked, prohibiting porn wouldn't work in a male dominated world. Take the money away, there would be other values bartered for what stands for porn. Could the Egyptian coup d'etat have taken place because people couldn't get porn?

This is why I wanted to explore Cuddle Party as a catalyst for change. It can be all male. It can be all female. Women can brush hair and massage feet. Some might get high on it, but my sisters and I never got outrageously turned on by doing make-up, curling/brushing hair, and even touching each other's feet and backs and hands and necks from the time I was little. It was a family thing that wasn't sexual touch. I am a facilitator, but not certified because I haven't been able to do these in my home, and because my concept of non-sexual touch is frightening to men I know in a public setting like a park or Presidential Dining Room at the Jimmy Carter Center, and I have had a Cuddle Party at a Starbucks with people who knew me. Did they ask for another one? No. They want to do this in a home so that if there is an erection for either a woman or a man it is possible with as little embarrassment as possible. Does anyone have questions about the Cuddle Party? I did go through a weekend training intensive with 9 people and lectures and 10 week sessions online with 5 facilitators with master's degrees in sex ed or psychology. I have been to several Cuddle Parties. I have had only 2 in a private setting. I don't have enough friends willing to do this for me so I can get certified, and if that is the case, then there aren't people who will be attending later when I am certified.

Tantra does have a lower and higher energy kundalini (sp) that was portrayed by two people at training.

So it is not my idea to prohibit males from something no one would prohibit them from, including addicted ministers--and there are some statistics, but who knows how true they are?

It is my idea to help by incorporating more non-sexual touch into an oversexed society, unless we have never been oversexed. If it is just the norm. But according to archeologists, abortion has been the norm from ancient times as well as cannibalism of children. If porn is the norm, why is it so miserable for so many? Why do fewer people thrive and prosper with a porn industry? Or are they thriving more and prospering more with more out of life, including longevity? Humanitarians don't necessarily live longer, but perhaps their pursuit of happiness is much more fulfilling when they realize the small inroads to bringing happiness as catalysts through getting girls into places where they aren't beaten and raped at the tender age of 8 or whatever.

Homosexuality isn't new to me either. I was in love with 2 men in seminary. Twenty years later I found they were lovers to each other. I have made peace with them both, but if I had chosen differently, what would my life be instead? If I had had crushes on heterosexual men instead of these happy and kind and compassionate and great looking guys, what would my life be like instead? I would be married to a minister and not doing what I do, which is humanitarian work for a humanitarian movement that belongs to a summit that is global for nothing except to enjoy my meals better knowing that in many ways life is better for people who have a better life not being in a miserable condition. But who am I to tell? Maybe everyone is supposed to be slaves to porn/violence/war/verbal abuse, etc.?

The thesis of Cuddle Party begins with boundaries. Rules are paramount to the therapeutic effects.

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Permalink Reply by Charlotte Fairchild on October 4, 2011 at 2:45

Mostly males respond to the Cuddle Party. It isn't a safe proposition for women in their perception. If they thought the ratio was 50/50, which it never is, then it would be better. Some men just stand around and talk or there are people who change around and talk to someone else, cuddle someone else.

The women think that a frat party with alcohol is safer, or maybe they went to the frat party, and think this is the same. It just is not an easy sale within the country, but on the coasts there are people who have a back ground in massage and therapeutic touch who are open to the safety issues.

If people are afraid of themselves, they won't come.
If people are afraid of inequities in power, they won't come.
If people are afraid of the situation and embarrassment they won't come.
If people believe that it is an orgy, they might be willing to come?

Many people are turned off by the idea there is no alcohol and no drug allowed.
Many people are turned off that there is a party with a suggested donation.

The idea of reciprocity is just weird to people. Affection from strangers is weird, even after talking for an hour, being around someone and hugging or spooning them is just weird.

Now a new disclosure. I have family members who would flinch when they were touched and they would not allow hugging. Asperger's Syndrome is in my family. I have 4 family members with symptoms, and I am on the spectrum, maybe. I don't flinch, and I can "read" emotions much easier than a true Aspie. So my vision is for Cuddle Party to be helpful to people who are related to people with Asperger's Syndrome. Especially people who are young and "aching" for touch.

I have few people who respond to my Cuddle Parties. By far men want to come. Women don't much. Only one has come to a Cuddle Party I facilitated. That was at another facilitator's house and he listed himself as a co-facilitator. At times he has 30 people who come and at times he has 10. This time he had 9 men and one woman besides me. She was a massage therapist. I had 2 harps and I didn't get them out and let men help each other with indirect touch. I didn't get to experience touching someone because I had someone brushing my hair, someone putting lotion on each foot and someone tickling my neck. The male facilitator was the actual facilitator, but I directed and we ended early. Which is OK. It doesn't have to be 3 hours.

This dispels some curiosity, I hope. As far as the human condition, perhaps they want someone manly to show strength and facilitate. What if a woman can't dial 911 for recalcitrant or unruly behavior? What if the group all becomes so excited they "have to have sex?" There are many very odd ideas and fears.

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Permalink Reply by Charlotte Fairchild on October 4, 2011 at 1:25

You are on target about my intent about touch. I didn't see the aspect of boundaries and respect included with the ideas of non-sexual and sexual touch included, but you aren't a facilitator of this. There are people who cry and people who do not know what to do with their feelings so they are told in the ending of the workshop/Cuddle Party, to refrain from bars at least until they work through the feelings. No one told me to, but refraining from chocolate would help as well.

Some people say no to requests just to practice saying "no," during the workshop. Some people only say yes because they have to say no so much (rarer).

Examples? People newly divorced sometimes find themselves saying yes to drinks in other places. There are no alcohol or drug use practices at a Cuddle Party--except chocolate. No wine, beer, nada, nothing. The bar scene people find themselves going home with someone and not making the best of possible worlds as Candide would say. Is the choice to go home with someone you have talked to for 3 hours, set boundaries with for 3 hours, and relaxed with for 3 hours without drugs and alcohol different? Fewer people may be going home with a total stranger and saying yes, "just because to more than they really want to experience. There may be more regrets with the bar scene, but maybe it is all worthwhile learning." There is at least a foundation of perception that stands to reason because reason isn't in a swamp of drugs and alcohol in a Cuddle Party. Although the feel good drugs of pleasure from touch can be just as potent in many stupid ways as perhaps chocolate or perhaps alcohol or some drugs that aren't too damaging to the brain? I am not an expert for this comparison. (hB?)

For some reason I am perceiving myself as more coherent than in my thesis ramblings that started this extensive exploration.

Does this mean Cuddle Party will compete with bars for business and people will no longer be going to bars but to Cuddle Parties? Not hardly. Isolation and arousal addiction is much more the norm than the meeting of minds and the meeting of touch for many, many people. Bars and dance halls are now personal ads and cyberdating.

And what are the consequences? STI/STD occurrences have been rampant in retirement and nursing homes for decades. I know too much about this because of my fertility research for the wide spectrum of people's ages and stations. I worked with foster kids yanked out of family and some foster homes that were abusive. Children having babies happens. Thankfully cannibalism seems to be less conspicuous than in times past. Children do have STI/STD and die young from HIV/AIDS.

I was a hospital chaplain for 11 years. They aren't called for just the good stuff. I didn't experience a lot of the pleasures of personal interaction between males and females but I have experienced the agonies of consequences through my humanitarian work. And how will touch change/catalyze this?

Maybe not at all. Maybe after 3 hours of touch and boundary setting people will leave and go to a bar, or go to their home bar with the "date" they picked up and then mayhem will reign. Maybe the pangs of the world are unavoidable for males and females. But what if more people fall in love and begin respecting and treating each other better and touching each other in a loving and compassionate way that also can be sexual later?

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Permalink Reply by Charlotte Fairchild on October 3, 2011 at 22:22

I started 2 forums. The first one I had disclosure and people thought I was promoting because I left out I am not listed as a facilitator, but in the process. So I had nothing to gain.

Leo Buscaglia http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbxaiR92AII NPR had several fund raising episodes to raise money for Public Radio. This is a long interview, and listening to just a part of it might be sufficient.

http://www.amma.org/amma/ is linked to MLK and to Gandhi with peace and compassion.

http://www.cuddleparty.com People are very different after they receive touch and affection. Don't think orgy. Think chimps sitting around grooming and sharing stories.

Thank you for raising questions Kim, and for filling in many of the spaces Luis.

From my understanding, men are the focus of The Demise of Guys, not just teenagers.

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Permalink Reply by Kim Jones on October 2, 2011 at 23:21

You are pretty much on the money there, Anthony. Now if you had the choice (as a bloke) between touching a real girl's boobs and maybe getting a scolding look or worse from her, and touching the screen of your iPad and pulling up as many girls with interesting boobs as you can find, is it any surprise that you go for the virtual reality over the real reality? It isn't called "virtual reality" for nothing. It's virtually real.

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Permalink Reply by Kim Jones on October 3, 2011 at 1:19

Indeed, Adonis. Touch deprivation is a major problem for many. But I am not yet prepared to package this issue in the way it has thus far been presented: as the eminence grise behind the (perceived) downfall of men generally in the world. I see it more as a disease or a malaise of Western society.

CAF: Touch deprivation

I do not, for example, imagine that this issue afflicts boys and men ('guys') in Islamic society. We know, as a matter of precise fact that the Islamic universe is growing exponentially in terms of birth-rate and outstripping the West in population numbers.
(hR: doesn't seem to be too much of a touch deprivation issue there.)

However it is quite ironic how this works:

Islamic society strongly segregates the sexes. There is probably good reason behind this. It has been said that were women allowed to go about uncovered in Islam, as in the West, they would be pack-raped the moment they set foot in the street. The sense of entitlement that many males feel toward the body of a woman extends to the thought that an uncovered woman is surely a whore. The burqa thus has a high-range protective function for women in Islam. By extension, it must surely follow that in the home, the relations between the sexes must be very hot and sexy indeed. Thus, Islam manages to perpetuate itself in a way the West would call Draconian, but it works. "Different strokes for different folks".

The need for touch communication is the most basic of human urges and inflates to something called 'sexual desire' when opportunity arises. Desire is augmented by it's non-fulfilment, not by it's fulfilment. Fulfilment of desire satiates the urge (at least for a time). Thus, touch-deprivation can also be a positive as it can be a way of postponing satisfaction for the sake of heightening it. I'm not just talking about Tantric sex here, either. Watching porn with a partner before or during a sexual escapade has been more than once hailed as the best way of setting up an entirely satisfying experience. Many combine the porn with the drugs which gives even more bang for your buck. Both acting together work to fracture the attention somewhat, and divert the individuals away from consummating their lust for each other too early. (hG: if you are scared of becoming addicted to porn and drugs then make sure you only ever do these things with a sexual partner, not on your own. Sex and drugs are perhaps best seen as a social experience, not an experience of auto-eroticism although I am in no way condemning auto-eroticism by saying that.)

I'd better shut up as I am getting rather too voluble here. This CAF is unfinished. Someone else please continue it.

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Permalink Reply by Charlotte Fairchild on October 4, 2011 at 1:53

Kim, what if you got to spoon someone for a while, and experience someone's warmth and smell and talked to them? I have experience as a woman and chaplain and I talked to someone who was a counselor in a close hug with 30 people and 2 facilitators keeping the space safe. We talked about his recent divorce and dynamics of what he might be experiencing. He was 15 years younger, and really great looking, and I do not ever see myself as being more than a friend to anyone, including him. I told him things that might help him, because I have been faithfully married for 22 years, and he got really upset for a time about stuff and at the end when we did eye gazing, he had "regrouped" and maybe even figured stuff out. He was really upset and then a light went on and something therapeutic happened for him.

It is my desire that someone touch my hair. In a million years I won't get this from my husband. Will it "send" me to the brink of unfaithfulness? Well, I did give contact info to someone who brushed my hair for a very long time. But then thought about it and when I got home, told the facilitator to please tell the guy it was an "oops" moment. Stuff that happens in the group, if taken out of the group has a WHOLE new set of rules and boundaries--and I am not willing to jeopardize anyone's health over a feeling that is fleeting.

Am I going to Cuddle Party for an arousal addiction? I don't ache for affection as much after going for a while. The arousal is different. Can you say you can see a video and then go 3 days not feeling as cranky? That happens with touch. People do not feel as cranky after an extended amount of touching. (Montagu).

I am not by any means an expert. I am a novice, and I will always be learning.

Knowing I won't be raped or be seduced makes it possible for me to be close to men as friends as I might have been had I had brothers.

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Permalink Reply by Charlotte Fairchild on October 4, 2011 at 1:39

Po A man attitude from a woman would have to refocus the blog.

Why do we have to focus? Is touching focused?

So fun of you to say psyche! Psyche was female! Adonis!

Therapeutic touch is not therapy. Therapy is talk, or one sided massage, or prostitution--which is not the same as affection and communication boundaries are not practiced in a safe method with a facilitator. My husband still believes there could be room for a law suit. Now you know why I do not facilitate at the house. The touching at work had unequal power with few females in the superior until a small ratio of women gained power. It is still 13/500 in the Fortune 500. If you guessed 13 females out of 500 males, you are correct, at least for 2009.

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