Should people be taught to understand jokes?

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Permalink Reply by Franis on June 14, 2009 at 7:24

You should put that Bonto up over on that challenge thread also!

Yes, that may be one way to teach this ability to perceive humor. I suspect we need many more than just one exercise such as what you suggested. As Sinclair points out, there are many unique points of view about what makes something funny. The more of these that you can "get" the more things become funny. Of course, there's a preference (cultural or personal) involved in what is funny.

Funny has many, many different qualities: Drama Queen extremes; irony - as in, poetic justice, alliteration, words that start with "k", slapstick, juxtaposition...the list could go on and on...

In an attempt to learn about humor, I used to call up a friend's workplace and ask, "Is this the Terry Delsing School of Comedy?" His sales cohorts would laugh and put him on the phone. He would tell me a joke, I'd write it down. We would rate the joke's funny quotient, and sometimes discuss who would think it was funny or what context would be a good time to deliver it, such as, "here's a joke for sports fans," etc.

My job was to figure out why the joke was funny on my own. When I thought I had what made the joke funny, I'd make up another joke based on a similar function of funniness - but with all the particulars changed. After I got the new joke from him, I'd deliver my new variation on that previous joke of the time before. After trying out my original joke, on a future call, he would grade the funny bone of my previous joke.

He'd get a supply of original jokes, and I got an education. It worked pretty well to increase my humor level, as well as helped me remember jokes - which was something I was really lousy at doing at the time.

So - one of the quips that Mr. Delsing made memorable functionally was similar to our Groucho joke, best spoken at a time when bill collecting and the person swears that they just sent you payment: "Yes, I know, the check is in your mouth, and I won't come in the mail."

We could do that here. Each person comes up with a joke, (such as the one above...) The next person figures out why it's funny. They change around the particulars and invent a new joke or they tell a joke they know that is funny for what they think are similar reasons.
We could probably leave out the funny bone rating of the person's joke they make up, but it's useful to rate the original joke.

What do you think?

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Permalink Reply by Phil Bachmann on June 30, 2009 at 19:16

Sinclair,

Thanks for both your comments regarding online education and education manners.

On the first subject I agree that there is plenty of potential - for example there is a good fellow on the web who writes very brief summaries of various parts of human history. He would be an excellent history resource.

Regarding manners, this reminds me of a woman who told me she wanted to write a book about manners when 20 kids showed up for her son's birthday party - expecting to be fed - after none of them had RSVP'd to the invitations.

My own thinking on this is that manners should be taught in sets, so that you don't get resistance from people complaining that you're foisting your values onto them. eg.
- 19th century English aristocratic manners.
- Modern japanese manners.
- Relaxed Aussie factory worker manners.
- School teacher "listen-to-me-when-I'm-talking" manners.

The idea needs work, but there seems potential there.

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Permalink Reply by Sinclair McLay on July 1, 2009 at 14:18

Hi Phil - couldn't agree more. The foisting and the resistance sets up a barrier against what should be a beneficial flow whose aim is to benefit all .
I agree that localised sets may be a way forward. I also think language and terminology is vital. I even fell into the trap in my post of using the term 'teaching manners' . Lifeskills seems to be a fashionableterm for manners - however I find it cold. Hats off to the old - I can't do any better than 'respect'.
As for 'teaching' - I don't know - any ideas ?
Agree this needs more work - in fact if I was going to be provocative its arguably the most important subject there is.
If respect can be achieved between individuals, groups, employers and employees, leaders and led, corporations and customers, etc etc then pretty much everything else falls into place. There's a bright yellow hat !

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Permalink Reply by Phil Bachmann on July 2, 2009 at 10:52

Sinclair,

Thanks for the validation.

I haven't come up with any sort of detail yet, I'm just imagining that for every "set of manners" students would be taught the protocols that apply to various situations. Students would, for example, be expected to know the difference between how an 19th century aristocract greets an aquaintance in the street and how gang members from East LA do it. They would also be expected to know something about the origin of the rituals.

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Permalink Reply by Franis on July 9, 2009 at 12:23

PO: Manners are a joke

Translated from one culture to the next, they can definitely be funny!

The point in teaching manners would be so that people can be taught these manners so they see the jokes in them from the point of view of each of these particular cultures?

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Permalink Reply by Asa Jomard on July 9, 2009 at 23:29

Maybe prejudices, racism and the reason behind manners could be discussed and examined at the same time. In some ways prejudices becomes really funny if you examine them closely!

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Permalink Reply by Franis on July 10, 2009 at 9:42

Yes, stories about translated names of products in other cultures are particularly laughable...

Asa Jomard said:

Maybe prejudices, racism and the reason behind manners could be discussed and examined at the same time. In some ways prejudices becomes really funny if you examine them closely!

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Permalink Reply by Phil Bachmann on July 10, 2009 at 22:36

Franis, Asa,

It is difficult to refute the suggestions of beautiful women but in this case I feel I have a higher duty.

If you treat the manners of other cultures as a joke you will offend the other cultures, and worse still: not learn anything yourself. I would want students to see the value in other cultures - this would include role playing so that they get immersed in it.

Equally it is too easy to look at prejudices from former times and say that they quaint and just wrong.

As an example, sometimes when you talk to people born in the 1930s you will hear them say "I don't mind black people but I think they should keep to themselves."

Now obviously one can ridicule this view but in teaching youngsters about this "racist" culture I would skim over the obvious flaws and emphasise the value:

"It was thought that blacks and whites should not mix, because if they mixed they would marry and have children. In a segregated society these children would be shunned by whites because they look black, and shunned by blacks because they seem white. It was considered important that children not be denied a supportive community in which to grow."

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Permalink Reply by Franis on July 13, 2009 at 5:02

Gosh, Phil - thanks for the compliment. It's been while that someone has called me beautiful now that I'm past fifty. ;o0
I'll give another instance that is cultural that is an example of what you point out, Phil.
Why are the Danish people so happy?
Strangely enough, it's because they do not have high expectations. Thus they find themselves often splendidly and delightfully surprised because they are somewhat pessimistic, even though they often smile and say philosophical things about their life situation. Now, many people from other cultures would say, "what a shame that people have such low expectations of how things are supposed to be." But the Danes do and they reap the benefit from it in the sphere of what actually constitutes happiness, strangely enough.
So - there's an example of how some of the cultural attitudes would seem "funny," but it has quite a positive effect.

Phil Bachmann said:

Franis, Asa,
It is difficult to refute the suggestions of beautiful women but in this case I feel I have a higher duty.
If you treat the manners of other cultures as a joke you will offend the other cultures, and worse still: not learn anything yourself. I would want students to see the value in other cultures - this would include role playing so that they get immersed in it.

Equally it is too easy to look at prejudices from former times and say that they quaint and just wrong.

As an example, sometimes when you talk to people born in the 1930s you will hear them say "I don't mind black people but I think they should keep to themselves."

Now obviously one can ridicule this view but in teaching youngsters about this "racist" culture I would skim over the obvious flaws and emphasise the value:

"It was thought that blacks and whites should not mix, because if they mixed they would marry and have children. In a segregated society these children would be shunned by whites because they look black, and shunned by blacks because they seem white. It was considered important that children not be denied a supportive community in which to grow."

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Permalink Reply by Phil Bachmann on July 13, 2009 at 11:44

Re: Beautiful past 50...

I'm surprised you don't receive more compliments, I routinely tell older women they look good.

Sometimes people pull me up over it: "Don't you realise that the person you have just referred to as a 'lovely bit of crumpet is a grandmother??!!!". But what choice do I have? Who would benefit if I chose to think of older women as unattractive?

Re: The Danes, I did not know that about them, interesting comment. I remember an immigrant from Eastern Europe could not believe how people in Australia were so unhappy with their inflated expectations of how things should be. She told me, "You people complain about nothing!"

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Permalink Reply by Franis on July 13, 2009 at 23:07

Yes, In some cultures and subcultures, complaining has been elevated to an art, just as humor is the last flourish someone learns about when studying a second language. Having had the distinction of growing up with a lack of complaints, I find it slightly amusing whenever complaining occurs in my presence. My response when I hear someone complain is to radically accelerate their level of complaints until they just have to laugh about what they are actually saying!

In the Greek culture, people believe a "lively" discussion should always involve conflict. So they will create arbitrary conflict to "spice up" the conversation, even when they actually believe otherwise...because this is what you are supposed to do when you talk to someone Greek.

In many European and Japanese cultures, you are supposed to "second guess" what someone wants you to do, so they are not obligated to actually spell it out and make the request directly. It is considered "uncivilized" to be direct or honest. Thus, Japanese humor is often slapstick style. Someone is embarrassed and people feel OK to laugh at this embarrassment, because shame is such a common reaction in the Japanese culture.

Curious to hear of other cultures people have observed or know well, and what its corresponding preferred style of humor is that happens to be connected to it...

Phil Bachmann said:

Re: Beautiful past 50...
Re: The Danes, I did not know that about them, interesting comment. I remember an immigrant from Eastern Europe could not believe how people in Australia were so unhappy with their inflated expectations of how things should be. She told me, "You people complain about nothing!"

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Permalink Reply by Phil Bachmann on February 6, 2012 at 18:23

Svetlana's post seems to me to be a perfect example of how asking people and teaching people the meaning of jokes is a good way to understand other peoples' cultures.

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