Can our thinking influence evolution?
Hello.
I am wondering whether our thinking has any impact on how we evolve as a species. If we (human beings) and other life forms on this planet are still evolving (and somehow I like to think we are as I view evolution as a creative process!) then what role do you think our minds/thought processes have on the evolutionary process? Can we consciously evolve?
I am wondering whether our thinking has any impact on how we evolve as a species. If we (human beings) and other life forms on this planet are still evolving (and somehow I like to think we are as I view evolution as a creative process!) then what role do you think our minds/thought processes have on the evolutionary process? Can we consciously evolve?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Tony Alexander on -
I think the direction of evolution has to do with fitness/survivability. So for humans to evolve into more, say, creative beings, it would have to be harder for less creative individuals to live and pass on their genes, and easier for more creative individuals to do so.
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Permalink Reply by Tony Alexander on
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Yes. It reminds me of de Bono's distinction between innate intelligence and the operating skill (i.e. thinking).
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Permalink Reply by LoL on -
Being clinically objective, rather than espousing any kind of judgement, for a moment, I can quite simply point out the number of people who ... were it not for the intellectual accomplishments of the Human Race ... would not be in the gene-pool today
As a single example, antihistemines encourage the continuing existence of a subset of the species that, all else being equal in the natural world, should not be in the genepool ... Any animal that sneezes whilst hiding in the long grass will betray it's location and, sooner or later, fall victim to a predator or else starve by virtue of betraying its presence to its own prey - In the long-run, were it not for our intellect, there would be no hay-fever sufferers amongst us
Myopeia is encouraged in the species by our development of spectacles
The pollution of the water we drink and the air we breathe tips the balance in favour of those of us priviliged to be living in less contaminated parts of the World - And the long-term effects of ill-considered genetic modification of the food we eat are, frankly, frightening in the extreme
The effects of deforestation and species extinction, whilst unknown, are still the result of our intellectual capacity - Who knows what might have happened, had we not invented gunpowder and the Passenger Pigeon not been shot into extinction?
Thanks to indutrialisation we have BSE/vCJD, E-Coli growing on iceberg lettuce, strains of bacteria resistant to every antibiotic we have ever discovered ... All of which will influence the distribution of different subsets and characteristics of our species
If you want a seriously obvious example: The one-child policy in Communist China that has led to an imbalance of the sexes is a direct result of thinking ... rather than Thought ... and the long-term ramifications of that are unknowable
Want an even more obvious one? - Hiroshima and Nagasaki or, more recently, Tschernobyl
The list of evolutionary changes attributable, either directly or indirectly, to our thinking is longer than anyone can imagine
So ... rather than questioning "whether our thinking has any impact on how we evolve as a species", my question would be "whether it is possible to extricate the two at all."
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Permalink Reply by LoL on
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Kim Jones said:
I'd say the answer is no. It may have been possible in the past but the extent to which man dominates the planet now means that human thinking alone will make or break us. Which is why we should attempt to do something about the quality of our thinking. What this site is all about.
Hmmmm ... I'm not sure I'm as sure that it ever was
As far back as we can go, we were going to be what we have become; the 'thinking gene' ... (or whatever the basis really was/is) ... already driving us toward today
The fact that things could have turned out differently is neither here nor there ... We already had the potential; were already 'infected' by Thought, if you will
And, if you look at the Human Race objectively, I think the term infected is apposite - We behave like bacteria, using up all the resources in our petri-dish ... (the Earth) ... until we have nothing left to look forward to, but extinction
Moreover, given the current trend for the educated/intelligent to choose not to reproduce, whilst the 'great unwashed' reproduce like rabbits ... then, just as a behavioural propensity for catching life-threatening infections ... (e.g. indiscriminate, unprotected sex) ... is not a survival trait, intelligence would appear not to be one either - Those infected with intelligence are not contributing to its continuing existence in the genepool
Frankly, I fear, the memepool is in need of a good clean, but, like plumbers, the pool-cleaner can't get here until a-month-next-Thursday-week :(
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Permalink Reply by LoL on
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Hmmmm ...
There is absolutely NOTHING (natural) I can do about it and I am STUCK with my intelligence (as measured from time to time by IQ testing etc)
There appear to be so many taken-for-granted, a priori assumptions there that I fear I cannot do them justice in the time I have at my disposal right now
But, am I and Isn't there?
You appear to be considering intelligence as a non-operational function ... not as a function of behaviour, but as an innate state; immutable
From a functional, operant angle: If you are so sure about this then why bother attempting to encourage people to adopt EdB's techniques? - Surely, if there is nothing that can be done ... and intelligence is not a function of behaviour ... they will have no impact
From a physical substrate angle: The brain is plastic and, therefore, perfectly capable of forming new pathways that might well lead to improved performance and, therefore, greater intelligence - And that is only of concern if intelligence is a function of brain state ... (if it isn't then your apparent a priori assumption is falacious)
I shall not debate the validity of IQ testing here, since I am sure that, if you take a few seconds to contemplate the issue, you will be able to imagine what EdB himself would have to say regarding the relevance, never mind accuracy, of IQ testing to intelligence
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Permalink Reply by Juan Francisco on -
Hello,
First one would be thinking, and then got this move, calling this movement idea. This idea was looking for something where I stand, where he rested and was called technology. Tube is an evolution, starting with the stones, until today, computers. Fixing the gaze on the past, the stones were carved by our ancestors, can be perceived with the intensity we experienced the generation of creative ideas. That one looks to the past and somehow did not think they used "stones" to survive and express themselves. Certain areas were not necessarily the most manipulable, even flexible, and easy to treat, as we all know how tough they are.
So that made the material choice of work? -.
It is possible that first found by chance a natural cave and the use of shelter, living among them could have been familiar with such structures, and perhaps some day you could see some deformation found in the rock (the creative perception) that produced a strange way to remember them (the memory) something, a human face, some animals, some form of nature, clouds or any other flower ... Could even have been worshiped or used as protective talismans. All this activity, that could have been some tweaks to add small stones to give them better vision (creative techniques). Maybe the spots with some flowers, paint ready, or even dressed in furs (technology).
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Permalink Reply by LoL on
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Kim Jones said:
Thinking skills are completely independent of intelligence levels. We distinguish constantly this observation, here. Intelligence is the horsepower of the car (= your mind). Thinking skills are the skill with which the car is driven. A crummy car will still arrive at its destination if driven well. There is no "lower limit" to the level of intelligence required to develop thinking skills that will be life-altering. Viewed this way you can say that the concept of intelligence is virtually irrelevant in the development of thinking skills. E has taught 5 year olds the skills and he has taught Nobel laureates the skills. Could you imagine a wider spectrum of intelligence than that?
OK ... I think I see what you're driving at ;D
Interesting
OK ... Let me think ... ... ...
I suppose what I'm left wondering is, whether or not, intelligence can be discussed from anything other than an operant/beahvioural POV
The only measure I have of whether or not something/someone is intelligent or otherwise ... and the degree to which it/they may be said to be so ... by observation of behaviour - Everything/Everyone other than myself is effectively a Chinese Room to me
I may be being fooled by an unintelligent, but convincing, Turing Machine ... the object of my observation may be a genuinely intelligent Turing Machine ... it may be a genuinely intelligent entity sui generis ...
But I will never know - So intelligent is as intelligent does
So ...
If Thinking Skills training results in more intelligent behaviour, I can only conclude that the use of those skills, once learned, results in increased intelligence
Can one be certain that learning improved thinking skills does not, in fact, actually increase base-level intelligence? - And, if so, how does one measure the difference?
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Permalink Reply by Sinclair McLay on -
Does thinking impact on our evolution ? - depends I suppose - if we start sprouting wings - my leap of choice - is that an innate potential or the result of wishful thinking ?
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Permalink Reply by LoL on
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Kim Jones said:Intelligence is the speed with which the neurotransmitters do their work of carrying signal in the brain.
I'm not convinced
Although I never went beyond a BSc., one of my degrees is in Psychology, with my final year specialisation being neuro - At last! (Had to wait five years to get to do it officially)
And although I couldn't, hand on heart, claim to be an expert: neither am I entirely ignorant of how the brain works
And I'm not sure that speed is of the essence, when it comes to intelligence - I have no doubt it helps, but who is more intelligent ... Someone who goes around in circles extremely fast ... or someone whose thinking is slower, but less error-prone?
To take your car analogy, put two different drivers in the same vehicle on the same road under identical conditions and one will drive better than the other
The car is the same, so it cannot be the speed of the substrate (the car) which accounts for the 'intelligence' of the combined car+driver unit, but the driver
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Permalink Reply by LoL on
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Kim Jones said:Hey LoL
I can see from your writing that you are perhaps into computationalism. Have you heard of Wei Dai's "Everything List"? This list is nothing less than the restaurant at the end of the universe for QM freaks like you and me.
I dunno that I'm 'into' it as such, but very interested by what light it can shed on the real thing yes - My other BSc. is in Computer Science (final year specialisation was A.I.)
But I'm 'into' a lot of things that appear, on the surface, to be to do with 'computers' only to reveal themselves to be of a philosophical/analytical bent when examined more closely
Haven't come across the Everything List and shall have to take a look at it - Thanks for the tip! :D
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Permalink Reply by Sinclair McLay on
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One way our thinking could directly influence our evolution is to come up with ideas for improvement and then see if they could be engineered - already mentioned wings - but anyone for night vision, gills or self-cleaning teeth ?
Personally think the next jump - whether by accident or design - will be in the area of sleep. Do we really need to shut down for 8 hours a day along every step of our evolutionary ascent ?
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Permalink Reply by Franis on -
Aren't we consciously evolving whenever we learn?
At a point where I needed more time, I have personally conducted an experiment where I slept for 2 hours twice a day at twelve hours intervals and was able to function indefinitely. Keeping another sleeping schedule was socially quite isolating, but worked quite well as long as I was consistent. I can sleep for ten hours at a time! But a regular regimen cut it down to four hours a day with the twice a day routine I just described - which was fantastic! (What a shame the siesta is being abandoned, isn't it?)
We'd better become better at foresight, or else the human race isn't going to be here very much longer! Was assuming that evolving needed isolation in order to function - and the world is becoming one huge culture with all the pockets of isolated idiosyncratic cultures being swept away. So this is an interesting question to think of in the other direction as you suggest.
I suspect that How we think may have more importance than What.
But yes, I think we are able to understand ourselves better than previously...but whether that's going to make any difference to the planet or us as a species, we shall see. There are other people who have asked a similar question - have you read their explorations?
We who are here now on the earth now are the hopes of a long line of ancestors who imagined and worked hard for a better future for their children. Because of books, the mail, the internet, the roads, the telephone, the media, people can know what I'm thinking and be affected by it...whereas before, genius didn't matter so much because brilliant thinkers were isolated in islands of being a big fish in a small pond.
The limitation of why we haven't evolved already seems to be more social than factual. It's fascinating to imagine you could have traded ideas with Leonardo da Vinci... If you met da Vinci who had just time-traveled here and now, how would you recognize genius such as that? Now, if you are paying attention, you probably know someone who is alive right now who is as interesting as da Vinci was. Go talk to them and nurture some ideas into fruition that might save the world...then become a better teacher...
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